How To Close A License Loophole

SCHMIDT
A key principle of virtually every engineering licensure law, standard of professional conduct and code of ethics is that engineers should always and only practice in the technical areas in which they are competent. The licensing process uses education, experience and examination to identify those who have presumably acquired sufficient competence.

However, there is a loophole of sorts: In most jurisdictions, once engineers become licensed, it is entirely up to them to define their own areas of competence within the profession as a whole.
Engineers typically feel like they have a pretty good handle on this. We think that we can readily discern which assignments are within our capabilities, and which ones we ought to pass along to someone else or simply decline.
The truth, though, is that people routinely overestimate their competence without ever realizing it. Research has shown that it requires competence in order to detect competence (or incompetence). Incompetent persons are often unaware of their incompetence unless and until a mistake of sufficient magnitude makes it apparent.
Psychologists call this the Dunning-Kruger effect, after the authors of a landmark 1999 paper. David Dunning and Justin Kruger showed that human beings “tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains.” More importantly, those who are incompetent are actually unable to realize it. In fact, the only dependable way to help others recognize their incompetence is to increase their competence!
This clearly refutes the nearly universal assumption that licensed engineers are inherently qualified to judge their own competence to carry out any particular engineering task. It is not a matter of an ethical deficiency, where individuals willfully provide services that they know are beyond their range of expertise; rather, it is a cognitive deficiency, where those individuals are quite innocently ignorant of the inadequacy of their knowledge and/or skills.
The Solution
Since self-assessments of competence are so subjective (and unreliable), what is needed is an objective way to establish competence. Fortunately, one such method already exists: the discipline-specific technical examination. Assuming the test has been developed properly, someone who passes it is likely to practice competently within the particular branch of engineering that it covers —but not necessarily in others.
With this in mind, consider the case of structural engineering. In 2006, the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES) convened a task force to review its examinations in that field. This highly competent group determined that an eight-hour test—the standard for all other disciplines—is insufficient to establish adequate competence to practice structural engineering; instead, 16 hours is the appropriate length. The task force also advocated modernizing the examination format and specifications to be consistent with current (and increasingly complex) building codes. NCEES adopted these recommendations, and the new test that resulted is being introduced nationwide in April.
This suggests that at least some engineers who passed an eight-hour examination in another discipline may be exhibiting the Dunning-Kruger effect when they deem themselves competent to practice structural engineering. Certainly, many individuals whose education and experience were heavily concentrated in the design of structures do have the necessary competence. But how is a client, code official or ordinary citizen supposed to tell the difference? Separate licensure of structural engineers helps to solve this problem. Several states already have taken this step, others are exploring it, and all should seriously consider it.
More broadly, engineering licensure laws, standards of professional conduct and codes of ethics probably need to be revisited. Engineers should no longer be expected to evaluate their own competence and practice accordingly; instead, they should be required to remain strictly within the scope of the examination that they passed to become licensed.
In light of the Dunning-Kruger effect, such a constraint is necessary for engineers to fulfill their most fundamental responsibility: holding paramount the safety, health and welfare of the public.
Great points. Not only does it take competence to know when you are incompetent, but it also takes ethics to know when you are being unethical and even more ethics to stop that behavio...
The flaw in these licensing laws is that it starts from an assumption that all engineers are competent and ethical, so therefore we have nothing to worry about. This assumption is obviously unrealistic and can lead to many problems.
I agree that the points made here are important for engineering practice.<br/><br/>Jon would probably point out about the headline that, strictly speaking, the 16-hour exam by itself wi...
Jon would probably point out about the headline that, strictly speaking, the 16-hour exam by itself will not actually close the loophole—the individual state boards would have to mandate it for anyone providing structural engineering services, or adopt his broader recommendation to require all licensees to practice only within the scope of whatever examination(s) they have passed. And he'd probably point out that a few have already taken one or both of these steps.
Does anyone think this is too much trouble and unneeded?
I have a simple self test. If I have to spend more time figuring out how to look up the information, to do the work, than actually do it, I am probably not competent. I am definitely ...
Along with this, I have to consider the potential ramifications of a failure. Reinforced concrete head gates or drainage structures are far less critical and complicated than an occupied building. And, the criticality of their failure is not generally life threatening.
I feel fully competent to design a ten-foot wide, four- stringer bridge, spanning a 20-ft canal, to carry a loaded concrete truck for four crossings and lightly loaded pickup trucks weekly for the next twenty years. I know I am not competent to design an ASHTO Standard highway bridge.
I cannot promise to repond to every comment here, but I do plan to monitor the discussion and chime in when I am able.<br/><br/>Anonymous@9:50AM: Good point about the parallel situatio...
Anonymous@9:50AM: Good point about the parallel situation in ethics. Just to reiterate, though--being overconfident about one's abilities is not (necessarily) an ethical deficiency, but a cognitive one. A very earnest and well-meaning engineer can still be an unreliable judge of his/her own competence.
rkorman@11:48AM: Thanks for relaying my concerns about the headline on the homepage.
Anonymous@1:04PM: Those seem like good rules of thumb, and I wish that every engineer would take such a thoughtful approach. Like all heuristics, they are genuinely useful but ultimately unjustified, incapable of justification, and potentially fallible.
Interesting, but what is the cost benefit? what is to be gained? where is the "evidence" to prove the proposition? what is there to gain, when on-site government officials, not enginee...
John,<br/><br/>The study cited in your article made a distinction between the abilities of a basketball coach vs those of a basketball player, for example. Do you see a parallel contra...
The study cited in your article made a distinction between the abilities of a basketball coach vs those of a basketball player, for example. Do you see a parallel contrast in the field of engineering, say between academic talents vs talents in practice?
Also, do you have any recognized creditials in psychology, or do you otherwise hold the opinion that you can competently interpret this study with respect to engineering?
It would be helpful as this discussion proceeds if commenters would identify themselves somehow, but those who prefer to remain anonymous are certainly still welcome to do so.<br/><br/>...
Anonymous@1:16AM: Thanks for your comments, but I do not understand your point. Cost-benefit of what? Evidence to prove what proposition? The engineer of record is far more responsible for the safety of a particular design than any government official. Insurance and the courts only "weed out incompetence" after a mistake has been made, usually with negative consequences; why not try to be more proactive? I agree that passing a test does not guarantee competence, especially many years later; but I believe that it does increase the likelihood that someone will practice competently within the scope of the subject matter covered by that particular exam.
Anonymous@1:48PM: Good questions! The contrast that I would make is between knowledge and skill. I am convinced that engineering is more of an art (skill) than a science (knowledge). Certainly engineers must have a great deal of knowledge (of science, among other things) in order to do their jobs, but that is not enough; they also need the skill to apply that knowledge effectively in specific and unique design situations. I do not have any credentials in psychology, but the conclusions of Dunning and Kruger are quite general; I see no reason to think that they are not applicable to engineering. If there are any comparable studies that specifically address engineering, I would love to see them.
I remember in the past companies had a system in place to check all structural work calculations/work by supervisors and coworkers to ensure that validity of the design calculations and...
David M. Niese,P.E.,G.E. My license is in civil engineering. At school; my major was soils and structures. Took 8 upper division and graduate courses in structures and mad "A" in al...
Since the mid 70's a lot of my practice has been performing calculations for light structures out of concrete, wood, steel and masonry. My work is bolstered by self study of the latest codes and gaining
approved by city staff and other large firms like Black & Veach, Bechtel, Sargent and Lundy. My main
client is a precast group that builds under ground concrete vaults for dry and wet utilities. They hired me 9 yrs. ago because of my soils & structures back ground. I have turned down work that was out of my league also. My work took me to be certified by UBC and ICC as a Building Inspector. I worked on my own because of recessions in Arizona and California and made a living on my civil registration. I go to seminars on structural topics and ethics and buy up to date codes and references to help my practice.,
Even a licensed engineer can be working outside his area of expertise within his field. Ultimately it still is up to the individual to know his/her own limits. It has been my understand...
There are too many cases when there are cross-over fields that engineers practice in although they may only encroach into those areas minimally and not sufficient to be fully licensed within that field.
It is hard enough to separate survey from engineering in some states how are we going to separate the boundaries between structural/civil/geotechnical ?? Ultimate it still comes down to the engineer knowing his/her limits. As a licensed structural engineer in a number of states, I know I have no business designing a multi-story building. Every engineer should already know what they are competent to perform within their discipline. I think it’s a disservice to call this a loophole.
The issue of the need for a 16 hour exam is a separate issue – it does not solve anything about areas of competence whether its 4 or 40 hours.
The article is based on a psychological test, whose results were written about in 1999, and which now has a place in the world of physo-speak. Is there any empirical evidence that the ...
Let's get real, here, people. I'd like to think that our profession is one that likes to rely on actual, real, emperical examples.
I have a problem with the concept. How many engineers do we all know that passed the "test" on the first try and are horrible engineers? The ability to pass the "test" no matter how lo...
We give the wrong impression that we can forget how we got to where we are as a well respected profession by simply insisting that a longer test (or for that matter more time in college) will make up for the shortcomings of proper guidance of intern engineers.
There are also plenty of architects who have passed the long exam they give that can't design a building. Sure they can design the concept but the working drawings and details are another matter and that takes experience that no test can give.
My father, a steel detailer, used to say that no engineer should be allowed to design until they had detailed for three years! That concept is as true today as it was in the 60's when it was said. NO test will ever replace true on the job experience and if we don't recognize that, it will be at our (and the public's) peril.
By the way, what ever happened to the concept of working hard in college? When I went to school (I know another era) we were happy not to have to have classes on Saturday! Now I constantly hear about no classes on Friday! Engineers were known to have heavy work loads and accepted it. Today, we are afraid of driving students away from engineering by making them work too hard!
Oh, I forgot, the long winded response was from Paul in Fairfield, NJ.<br/><br/>While I am on my soap box, how about the Building Officials who dole out advice that they should not (alt...
While I am on my soap box, how about the Building Officials who dole out advice that they should not (although that is getting better), the politicians who think legislation will solve every construction site problem (and who are lawyers, not engineers), and the heads of DOT departments who are lawyers and not engineers. Our society has a long way to go. In the meantime, the "down in the trenches" engineers will continue to serve the public in a professional and responsible manner.
More examination is not the answer! Of course a council for examination would think more exams are a solution to all woes but applying theory in practice is what is needed. Proctored ...
I agree with Anonymous @ 7:28. While the testing gives good insight on how "book smart" the engineer is. I can't tell you how many times I have asked my engineers, how are you going t...
However, as a graduate mechanical engineer who is license as a civil, with a speciality in water and wastewater, there is no way I would even think of doing mechanical engineering, outside of sizing pumps and pipes.
Is a 16 hour test a good idea, maybe. Is a master degree required for a professional, maybe. But there is nothing like experience and a good mentor to teach a engineer what they can or can't do.
I have been a P.E. in Wisconsin for about 1 year. I passed the Civil Construction P.E. on the first try with about 10 min of study. I would also be able to pass the Civil Transportatio...
So the big question I have is if I work in all of these disciplines then are we going to require a passed test if each one.
I am glad to see that the feedback is picking up and appreciate everyone's contributions to the discussion. As the number of comments increases, I will have to respond in more general ...
Checking work is certainly important, and my firm has a fairly rigorous system in place. The challenge is that clients are demanding lower fees and tighter schedules, such that--at least in my experience--what is being checked is often not as complete as we would like, and the checking process is not as thorough as it used to be. I agree that this is another aspect of the overall situation that needs to be addressed.
The original paper by Kruger and Dunning does indeed date back to 1999, but their general conclusions have been validated by additional studies since then, and they themselves published an update in 2009. Competent people do tend to know their limits and are usually conscientious about remaining within them; the problem is that incompetent individuals typically do not have the same self-awareness and ability to self-regulate.
I have already acknowledged that examinations are not perfect or foolproof for demonstrating competence; I just think that they are the best tool currently available. If an incompetent person can pass a particular test, then that test has not been developed properly. The right kind of exam will not just cover theory and "book smarts," but will also gauge someone's ability to apply theory in practice--the skill aspect of engineering that can only be acquired and honed by experience. For example, the 16-hour structural exam is 50% mutliple-choice and 50% essay, so that candidates are graded not only on getting the right answer, but also on taking the right approach to the problems presented to them.
A 16 hour test likely weeds out some wanta bees, and it does create some additional level of recognition and respect. In California, SE's have dealt with a 16 hour test for many years ...
The real controls on competence are the individuals, their peers, their employers and their insurors, who will take into the account the psychological aspects referred to by Mr. Schmidt, whether they have the right name for it or not.
If there truly is a proliferation of incompetence in the engineering workplace, the answer lies in the useful experience of the individual, not whether or not he can pass a test on a gi...
Douglas W. Spruill, P.E.
Michael Baker, Jr., Inc.
Texas 35529
Licensed Structural Engineer for past 32 years. Yes, there are hacks in engineering, but just like there are hacks in medicine and law and every other field. I have seen studies like ...
I agree with others here that 16 or 40 hours of testing does little to guard against someone entering into design work where they don't belong. Spending 400 hours of study to get through a 8 hour test is more college work, not real world conscious knowledge and easily forgotten if not applied.
seriously, isn't there a better way to evaluate engineers than just a bookish calc test? why can't there be a bit of a boot camp, like 80-120 hours of class that shows practical buildin...
I
I think tests can work, if they test the right things. Practical things installation issues, professional responsibility, detailing, changing materials etc can be tested, its just not the same thing as a series of academic calcs.
I believe the article is mainly concerned with the fact that many states (including NY where i live and work) do not distinguish between the specific fields in the engineering. In othe...
The article does a good job showing the dangers associated with the present rules, by simply stating that is in our human nature to have ego and overestimate ourselves.
Whether is enough a 16 hr exam to determine a good engineer from a bad one, we don't know yet and we can keep discussing it for hours. The fact is that the 2 day exam is a step in the right direction that should be followed by the legislation in those states that are still "loop holes"
E.M (E.I.T) not yet a PE :P
NY, NY
Perhaps the solution lies in the answer to this question: If there were a magic pill that made us immediately competent in all the knowledge in the world or for that matter all the know...
I am a licensed SE in California with 38 years of experience. I took a 16 hour exam and regularly interact with engineers who passed a 16 hour exam and I still see problems with engine...
The reality is that any exam can only cover a small subset of what needs to be known and because of inherent biases the exams focus on some areas at the expense of others. There is also the reality that the field of structural engineering is so broad that I am not sure that any individual can be fully competent in all aspects of it.
Many individuals may know what to do but not why we do it that way and are thus unable to know the limits of applicability of the knowledge. This is compounded by the fact that individuals often do not keep up with changes in the codes and philosophies of design.
For a variety of reasons we all occasionally work on the edge of or outside out area of expertise. Sometimes we even recognize it as we do it.
I believe that there is a need for a corollary to the Dunning-Kruger effect that states that individuals who believe that exams prove that they are competent do not know if they are competent. Exams may feel good and may keep a few more of the worst offenders out of the game but ultimately are incapable of determining the competency of individuals.
All the test subjects in the quoted study were Cornell University Undergraduates: Hence it is reasonable<br/>to conclude that their failure to access true competence in themselves and o...
to conclude that their failure to access true competence in themselves and others was due primarily
to their immaturity and not to their incompetency.
It would be instructive to replicate the research with mature test subjects.
So there you have it, the practical engineers have spoken. We need a better measuring stick. Unfortunately we do not have the ear of the academics that want to study the matter and com...
My wife is willing to concede that engineers are unique, maybe those who want to test us and look into our heads need to understand what motivates us. (When you figure it out, tell her please)
I want to do what I know, nothing else, and am willing to take any engineer to task who violates that trust. As truly special thinkers, maybe we should come up with a model that will not only work for us, but for other professions as well. We could start by making engineers declare their specialty. I almost never say I am a "Civil Engineer" as that is too broad, I am a "Structural Engineer" even though my degree and license says "Civil". I think we should set the standard that others live by. Throughout history engineers have paved the way (no punn), we don't have to follow.
Paul, Fairfield, NJ
Instead of more testing, let's be careful for whom we submit Board references.
The suggestions to increase the number of years for licensure eligibility and/or require intensive field training may have some merit. However, an examination of some kind still seems ...
The four-stage cycle of learning rings true to me, but the Dunning-Kruger effect means that (unfortunately) all of us always have UNCONSCIOUS INCOMPETENCE to a certain degree. Hopefully, in most cases it does not fall within the scope of our professional practice; but how would we know it if we strayed into such an area?
As for the magic pill solution--I repeat, competence is not about knowledge as much as skills, and a skill tends to be a "use it or lose it" kind of thing. An argument can be made that engineers should be required to demonstrate their competence on a regular basis AFTER licensure, not just one time early in their careers; however, I am not going to go there at this time. :-)
I am a practicing Structural Engineer outside of USA. In my country there are no licensing requirements. Our country believes that anyone who has passed through the engineering college ...
While testing is possibly a good idea, it is only one more above the college testing. In many engineering practices, especially Civil Engineering disciplines, experience is one of the best teachers. Also there are no single correct solutions to an engineering problem. It is impossible to test "experience" and good "judgement". The best compromise is possibly peer review before use especially in case of engineering for public infrastructure.
I wonder if a solution to this would be similar to a Board Certification for doctors. You can be a licensed doctor, but there are those who are also Board Certified. You would most ce...
My favorite run in with an incompetent PE was during a lawsuit our firm was involved with. We were hired by X client who was being sued by their neighbor over a flooding complaint. We proved without a doubt that our client's property was not the result of flooding on their neighbor's property. The neighbor built their home in a floodplain. Well, the neighbor hired a PE to review our work and testified that it was wrong. The only problem is, they did not know how to read our computer model, all they did was say things like "in ____ textbook, it says _____," so X's engineer is wrong... I was so delighted when a court judge ruled on this engineer's assessment by saying that this engineer is not correct, and they should be ashamed at themselves for basically being part of a "pay scheme" in which he was paid to say whatever the client wanted without backup proof.
But I digress... I guess the point is.. you can't weed out all the bad players. They will weed themselves out eventually, but it is frustrating when the good engineers get caught up in this.
I must admit that i've met an SE or two that i wouldn't trust with a bird house even if that's hard to believe. However, i've met far more CE's practicing structural engineering that ha...
In summary, i think the biggest problem is CEs being "qualified" for structural engineering based on their own judgment as the article suggests. I think the answer is providing a first step test specific to structural engineers instead of the CE PE test. This separation would avoid people learning just enough structural engineering to pass the forceably generalized PE exam and then later thinking they may be able to hack out a few equations they remember from school for a buck.
I do not agree with the argument that the Dunning-Kruger effect refutes the assumption that licensed engineers are inherently qualified to judge their own competence, I believe they are...
The cited study notes that the very competent actually underestimate their ability<br/>relative to their peers. At the risk of being unable to pass thru a door because of a swelled head...
relative to their peers. At the risk of being unable to pass thru a door because of a swelled head perhaps I and many other engineers belong to that select group.
After all engineers are supposed to be an especially brainy bunch and the study
was just of a general undergraduate college population.
Although I am not a structural engineer, I have on occasion designed moderate
structures and I feel competent I would know if I was out of my depth, if called upon
to design some structure that deviated significantly from a design I could largely
copy from a handbook - especially a handbook that gave good references.
Anyway I find it interesting that until recently California allowed round washers to
be used in bolting structures to foundations. Better late than never it was realized
that square washers do a better job at no additional cost. Structural codes, like other codes have glaring defects and rather than expend resources on ever more complex
examinations,those resources should be spent on code reform and engineering education reform.
For instance the medical profession is finding out that taking a course in organic chemistry is not necessary in becoming a good doctor - at least for a select population.
In my experience with madness (this is the word that fits most) and mental health problems, my experience has shown me that there is not a hard line between thinking clearly and rationa...
I assume engineering competence self delusion and other self delusions are similar.
This is the route to over-specialization and more government involvement. Narrow specialization creates its own set of problems from inability to grasp a "system". I point out that al...
It is the competence of the group that matters most and not the competence of individuals.<br/>Group incompetence manifests itself in defective engineering codes and in engineering educ...
Group incompetence manifests itself in defective engineering codes and in engineering education.
it may also manifest itself in defective testing.
With all due respect I believe the problem with practicing outside one's areas of competency will not necessarily be solved by additional testing. On the surface it might seem so but co...
The PE tests now are 100% multiple choice. There is no opportunity to observe an applicant's judgment and experience in a multiple choice test.
I have encountered many people who are book-smart and were not worth anything practically as an engineer.
The problem as I see it is a lack of experience and judgment, not numerical skill. A longer experience requirement would g a long way toward the goal of self regulation being effective.
Couple that with a little humility and the character to admit one does not know everything.
Hard things to teach in school. Impossible to determine on a multiple choice test regardless of how rigorous the test may be.
JRick
Long ago examinations were given to English Engineers for Civil Service Positions in India<br/>and it was found that the examinations failed to prevent the admission of incompetent engi...
and it was found that the examinations failed to prevent the admission of incompetent engineers.
It is axiomatic of course that examinations have validity.
However Henry Latham who noted this in his book "On the Actions of Examinations considered as
a means of Selection" written so long ago in 1877 very astutely wrote :
Examinations regarded as appliances in education, should be directed, not
primarily to discovering ability or knowledge, but as SANCTIONS [emphasis
in original] to systems of teaching."
JRick: As I noted in an earlier comment, the new 16-hour NCEES Structural examination is NOT 100% multiple-choice--it is 50% multiple-choice and 50% essay, which seems like the right b...
As noted we need a degree of competence to recognize our incompetence.<br/><br/>Thus I was shocked to read recently that the expression "center of gravity"<br/>is not a particularly pre...
Thus I was shocked to read recently that the expression "center of gravity"
is not a particularly precise expression. I knew and was an advocate for
changing the expression to "center of mass" but I missed entirely what really
makes the expression so objectionable.
Readers might like to figure out for themselves what makes these time honored
expressions so objectionable and wonder why they didn't figure it out for themselves.
Arizona is way ahead of the author. We have had a 16 hour structural test for 40 years. In my practice as a registered civil engineer who performs light structural I have turned down s...
and graduate courses in soils and structures. I have been working for the precast company for 10 years
and we have built vaults to carry heavy mine trucks, large aircraft loads and standard truck loads plus
soil over burden loads. My license requires continuing education and part of that effort is the new AISC 2005 steel code. If we never took on projects that caused us to do research and streatch our abilities
we would never grow and our practice would become boring.
David M. Niese,P.E.,G.E.
It has not been lost on me that most of those who are in the position to make these decisions regarding additional testing and harder requirements are conveniently also the same who wou...
I'm not advocating practicing outside your area of competence. I certainly have shared the frustration of watching engineers from other disciplines presume to have a knowledge about my field simply because they have been in the game longer. However, I don't wonder if there isn't some element in all this of people who feel as though if they make it harder on younger generations to achieve the same level of "competence" as they have, that they might feel as though their own accomplishments are of more merit.
Anonymous is on point questioning the need for additional testing and harder<br/>requirements for newly minted engineers while grandfathering those<br/>who have been around a long time...
requirements for newly minted engineers while grandfathering those
who have been around a long time and can't pass current tests.
I have encountered graduate engineers one of whom did not know exponents
had to be pure numbers and another who did nor understand the resolution of
forces when he somewhat aggressively questioned me on what seemed to
him to be unnecessary guying for a transmission line since the conductors it
was carrying were so light - I tried to explain to him in vain that a nearly horizontal
wire in equilibrium exerts a heavy horizontal pull. Another engineer caused me no
little trouble when he wanted me to approve an "energy saving"device that could
be seen on first principles not to save energy and on slightly further analysis to
cause apparatus to overheat - my guess here is that he was being pushed by
someone further up in the chain of command who was convinced by the company
salesmen and wanted to please him and could not see for himself that the device
could not save energy and installing it was on the side of danger. Nevertheless that
device enjoyed some commercial success until the National Institute of Standards
and Technology studied it, ran tests on it and condemned it.
In the 1930's ENR ran a series of articles on the effects of wind on structures
showing the time honored method was wrong, yet the articles were ignored and
the result was the the collapse of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. I imagine some
young engineers reading those articles wanted to design using those principles
but were told to design as usual.
Going back into the history of bridge building in America one finds such "unscientific"
structures as the bollman truss, as well as abject ignorance manifested for example
by some engineers not believing metals can be weakened by repeated stresses
and perhaps it was as late as 1900 or so when this truth was finally accepted.
It was only in the late 1920's thanks to the work of Bell Labs that the value of
statistics in engineering was established and the mathematics they used was
a century or more old.
Current events continue to show the importance of institutional failure, i.e educational and standard setting failures; these systemic failures include
The Deepwater Horizon tragedy showed that there was no requirement that
the equivalent of a boiler be required to demonstrate boiler vessel integrity and
the current flap over "unintended acceleration" is resulting in long overdue attention
finally being given to the human aspect factor of the design.
What I would like to see is an examination that need not be elaborate that sifts
for ignorance giving negative marks, not just zero,for to use the language of lawyers,
affirmative ignorance and failure for anyone who does not understand anything
so fundamental as the resolution of forces.
"Grandfathering" should not be used as an excuse for not understanding the resolution of forces!
Grandfathering allows grandfather engineers to design using ASD methods which should have been prohibited since way before cars had tailfins.
To me, this sums up the whole argument:<br/><br/>"I have been a P.E. in Wisconsin for about 1 year. I passed the Civil Construction P.E. on the first try with about 10 min of study." <b...
"I have been a P.E. in Wisconsin for about 1 year. I passed the Civil Construction P.E. on the first try with about 10 min of study."
Yet this person could sign and seal structural drawings in a lot of states. Many of those states or local jurisdictions have limited capacity for structural code review. Many hopeful structural engineers may see the Civil Construction P.E. exam as the easiest way to a license and therefore never really be tested on their ability to grasp structural design concepts. Exams are not perfect, but if you pass the proper exam, and have the prerequisite experience, and the prerequisite education, it's a pretty good evaluation.
This is not intended to be a knock on the original commenter, just an extension of his situation applied to this argument.
"Grandfathering" is sometimes a "necessary evil" in order to avoid depriving anyone of their current livelihood. For example, there have been and will continue to be transition clauses...
Not recognizing our own incompetence was recognized as a problem with a Lloyds<br/>Register audit of The Deepwater Horizon in 2010.<br/><br/>The just realized final report of the traged...
Register audit of The Deepwater Horizon in 2010.
The just realized final report of the tragedy (page 244) quotes from the audit:
" [Rig Crews] don't always now what they don't know. Front line crews are potentially working with a mindset that they believe they are fully aware of all the hazards when it is highly likely that they are not"
Regardless of what we professional engineers or our elected representatives decide, the problem is NCEES: people who are NOT engineers deciding on our professional qualifications.<br/><...
The laws of the various states require that boards composed of PEs determine who is a PE. In practice, unfortunately, they delegate this task to NCEES.