Casual Insults Sap Prestige, Power
Engineers should not lead organizations. Engineers are rigid, politically unsophisticated, unimaginative, uncommunicative and oblivious to the big picture. They lack the needed qualities for leadership and are best suited for lower-level supporting roles. You hear these comments all the time. Had these comments been made about an ethnic group or nationality, the comments would be condemned as stereotyping and the speaker as a bigot. But it’s quite acceptable if you make remarks such as these about engineers.


TRIPATHI
There is a price attached to our indifference and subtle acceptance of such derogatory comments. A majority of state legislatures have now passed laws revoking the requirement for a professional engineer to lead state engineering- and infrastructure-related agencies. While this has nearly ensured the extinction of engineers from the top of these agencies, there is a new onslaught against engineers under way that threatens to drive them from even the second- and third-level executive positions.
Many government agencies and private-sector companies have undergone major restructurings in the past two years. The restructuring exercise often includes an exorcism of engineers in which they are blamed for all that is wrong, are said to be problem solvers rather than visionaries and are said to lack adequate business chutzpah and to be insensitive to the political process.
Can you imagine the members of the American Medical Association or the American Bar Association remaining silent while members of their profession had such indignities heaped upon them? The engineering associations have a great number of members but sadly lack real influence.
There is a fundamental cultural issue involved. As a profession, we’re too detached and uninterested in power and prestige. I’ve sometimes wondered if George Washington had not been an engineer would he have deliberately set a precedent to serve no more than two terms as president and instead found a way to cling to the presidency longer. That would have left a legacy of power-grabbing rather than statesmanship. In fact, Washington’s leadership is the template for leadership in government, including his executive style.
Martha’s Sons
Our profession is painfully self effacing, deafeningly reticent and jarringly unsure of its importance. This self-suffering nature is perfectly captured by Rudyard Kipling’s poem written in 1907 called “The Sons of Martha.” It is universally regarded as the engineer’s song.
Kipling’s verses are based on the Gospel of Luke, which tells the story of Mary and Martha, two sisters of Lazarus who were hosting Jesus.
While Mary received Jesus and sat at his feet and heard his words, Martha enthusiastically rushed to the kitchen to make the food, boil the water, wash the disciples’ clothes and perform other chores to make the guest comfortable. When Martha came out of the kitchen and protested to Jesus, he said, “Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things, but one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken from her.”
In his imaginary comparison of the male descendents of Mary and Martha, Kipling portrayed Martha’s sons as the ones who provide all the basic support and infrastructure for every activity of life. They are capable conquerors of nature who say to mountains “Be ye removed” and to the lesser floods “Be dry.” And then Kipling wrote:
Under their rods are the rocks reproved—they are not afraid of that which is high.
Then do the hill-tops shake to the summit—then is the bed of the deep laid bare,
That the Sons of Mary may overcome it, pleasantly sleeping and unaware.
Unfortunately, Mary’s sons and daughters have become so accustomed to “pleasantly sleeping” and being “unaware” that they have started to undermine the contribution of Martha’s descendents. While we built the structures that support life across the continents, we now need to start rebuilding the stature of our profession. It’s time for Martha’s sons and daughters to come out of the back room and demand the respect they deserve.
Rakesh Tripathi has served in management and executive positions for state departments of transportation in both Texas and Arizona.
Good point. I see Engineering is not anymore considered as equals or even important anymore with say finance or media sectors. So there is a 'get the job done' attitude than 'get the ri...
This article points out the critical need for NSPE to focus on real issues rather than "flag waving" or "cheer leading" exhortations that we all have to take Mandatory continuing ed cou...
This is not new . This has been going on for at least 50 years that I remember , How many Engineers have a City manager's job ? Municipalities across the nation are missing the point an...
Engineering status can only be improved by having a unified organization speak on behalf of all engineers be they civil, mechanical, electrical, chemical, etc. something like an "Americ...
We, as engineers, must take some responsibility for our image. Most true engineers really enjoy running the numbers, laying out plans, and even writing specifications - what a strange ...
But we cannot just stay islolated at our work stations and then complain that we, "don't get no respect." We must get out there, talk to our elected officials, join and advance our professional societies (and have the guts to vocally disagree with them at times), do a career day at a local high school, write a letter to the editor of our local newspaper, etc...I agree with the article, but one thing we engineers are good at is complaining to each other about our our government, our image, and our pay, but yet never doing something about it. We need to act!
At one time, I would have been inspired by this article, however, after 35 years in the engineering biz, I've become biter. <br/><br/>Perhaps at one time engineering was a profession ...
Perhaps at one time engineering was a profession with deep thinkers who had character. Today we are less a "profession", but more huge blob of mediocre technicians - a faceless commodity of engineering cattle. With societies emphasis on hyper speed and the bottom line, there is little incentive to develop are minds, learn and take the time to do things right.
Today's consulting firms are fragmented between by b.s. marketing artists and the grunts in the back who do the real work. Young engineers entering the field can look forward to spending most of their time dealing with CAD or BIM or whatever is latest gizmo, rather than real construction issues.
Sorry, no "Rah! Rah! Go team! Go" from me.
It is all good and well to stand behind an AAE, NSPE or other large engineering organization, but what are individual engineers going to do. Real change does not come from the top but f...
So many thoughts, so little time. I am an engineer. I do the grunt work, the calculations, meeting with owners, agencies, contractors, consultants. I do the CAD work work so I can ge...
All comments posted so far are great. All should be said. All should be heard.
Why is only Anonymous writing? Have you no pride? Anonymous is the key to our lack of respect as a group.
Gary Sturdy, PE
Our modern society is a "Results Based" one. When we see house after house, community after community fail to the winds of tornadoes and hurricanes, the tremors and shakings of earthqua...
Instead, we hear about how our homes, workplaces, and communities are going to "go green", "energy efficient", and "smart", as long as they aren't hit by the tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, flods, tsunamis, blizzards, etc. Not too confidence boosting, is it? We see and purchase ongoing improving tv's, cars, communication devices, hollywood special effects, and so on, but are stuck with knowing our homes, which are suppose to protect us from the weather and elements, are just going to keep on failing, anytime it isn't sunny and calm outside!
A good Engineer should be open to new innovations in structural, wind, seismic, and flood protection methods for buildings and structures, whether the new concepts come from within or outside of the Field of Members only "Clubs". It would be a good start for improving the general public's image of current Engineers and Associations, don't you think?
I think everyone is dancing around the real issue at hand. The best leaders are those who lead by example. The public is not impressed with nor do they fully comprehend our credential...
If engineers are so "disrespected", I wonder what professions actually do garner bona fide respect from society at large. If we are not leaders, one would hope we at least have role mo...
Good question. Media focus our attention on politicians, business executives, athletes and entertainers. Some of them are worthy of respect. But I'd rather start with a teacher or colle...
Honestly, engineers are generally rubbish leaders. And the main reason is they don't do well at mentoring the next generation let alone bother leading anything. Many tend to be focus...
Engineers who are leader types are somewhat rare. We need to first ask what a "leader" type actually is. <br/><br/>I have met many egotists who think they are born leaders. It's amazing...
I have met many egotists who think they are born leaders. It's amazing how many pompous people there are in life without much ability/education/talents. And yet these people feel obligated to lead the rest of us - whether we like it or not. Generally it's all about "me, me, me" with these types. Hollywood and Washington, D.C. share a lot in common when it comes to celebrity psychology.
Engineers are typically on the flip side of egotists. Generally self satisfied with mechanical type stuff, few of us are even interested in politics. There are "too many variables" in politics to even attempt to solve the simultaneous equations, therefore we give up.
Here in Canada: you can find non-engineers working to support engineers, such as CAD technicians, earn more per hour than the lead engineers working in the same project. You can see CAD...
Our profession and our careers are what we make of them. I have workied with many engineers who are excellent leaders and some who are followers. But leadership involves getting out o...
I'm young to this profession (graduated in '08) and will completely agree with the lack (and quality) of mentoring and leadership in engineering. I come from an athletic background and ...
W.R. Barthule, E.I.T
American (Engineering) Job Destruction ! <br/>Engineers, Engineering Associations are silent to the following..............<br/><a href="http://www.american-engineers-for-america.in...
Engineers, Engineering Associations are silent to the following..............
http://www.american-engineers-for-america.info
www.noslaves.com
www.brightfuturejobs.com
www.eiass.com/Articles.htm
http://www.americanworker.org/
http://www.competeamerica.us/
www.h1bscam.org
http://www.hireamericansfirst.org/
The Death of U.S. Engineering
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts06062006.html
Bye Bye Engineering
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38064
Thanks to the poster for the article links. Confirms much of what I already knew. And to the poster who said the mentoring and training is lacking; yes, it really is, seriously lackin...
The profession of engineering in a single generation has gone from well respected, well paid, well educated, well prepared, well trained and well worked.... to a shambles and WalMart style cheap supply and offshore servicing.
Anyway, who recommends a youngster in college take engineering as a path to graduation is doing them a serious disfavor. I actively discourage young people from entering the profession unless they are planning on working in Asia (i.e. they are Chinese and returning home).
And those old timers still in good salaries on the last leg of their careers have done zero to ensure to the protection of the profession. No representation, no assistance, no union, nothing but cheap salaries, few jobs and loads of outsourcing and a massively fragmented disorganized bunch of morons known as engineers.
Engineers have done nothing to lead themselves... how can you even ask the question of whether they make good leaders... look at the profession and what a shambles it is... never mind the question.
Thanks to the poster of the previous comment. Excellent.<br/><br/>As someone who will be turning 60 this year, I have seen the gamut how engineering has changed since the 1970's. It is ...
As someone who will be turning 60 this year, I have seen the gamut how engineering has changed since the 1970's. It is easy to be negative and blame a lack of character, leadership, "old timers", etc. The changes that I have seen are more insidious nature, and are largely due to one thing: Computers.
There is a saying: "Once you squeeze the toothpaste out of the tube, you can't get it back in". There is no going backward. The world is operating in a manic hyper-speed mode, which is contrary to the slow pace and disciplined thinking of former times. Computers and fiber optics have enabled society to operate at warp speed.
I'm not "anti- computer". In fact, I have written a great deal of engineering software that I have sold to engineering firms for the past 20 years. Software is a powerful tool. My own career has benefited from software.
But for many engineers, the use of black-box software has trivialized the experience of problem solving. Previously engineers needed to know theory to do their jobs. Today's engineers get answers by the click of a button. To top it off, we "buy knowledge" using the same CAD programs - now, it appears, the same BIM programs. So what makes us different? Psychologically, this is a major change in the mental processes of engineers.
Also, we are becoming increasing homogenized into technicians. Mega engineering firms have appeared in the industry, traded on the stock market. To me, this is very weird and disturbing. Is a firm with thousands of engineers better than a firm with a few? If you believe the marketing hype, the big firms are the best thing since "Pepsi".
Finally, I have asked myself, "If I had to do it again, would I go into engineering?". Probably. You cannot stop a person from doing what they are meant to do.
The writer of the article and many of the responders have really nailed the issue on the head. The Engineers have continuously remained in the comfort zone without taking any action whi...
However, there is hope of raising the respect for the profession and making it once more the noble profession it used to be by uniting together with concerted efforts to do something and not just talk about it.
Thank you for reminding us about one of the most brilliant masters of the English language who is rarely taught any longer because his work is not regarded as politically correct.
Engineers and engineering associations do nothing to promote the profession other than trying to encourage more minorities to seek engineering degrees. As much as I dislike unions, the...
I know something about Rakish, the author and a great engineer leader, he built a great planning division at ADOT in less than two years, something no one thought was possible at ADOT. ...
Billions and billions have been spent in developing US for ages and we still have not come up with an engineer as a leader in house, senate or the white house to tell us how the money s...
Re: Rudyard and Rakesh.<br/><br/>One other missing element in the discussion of engineers, leadership and stature in society: eloquence.<br/><br/>I'm a writer and editor so you know my ...
One other missing element in the discussion of engineers, leadership and stature in society: eloquence.
I'm a writer and editor so you know my biases. But you can't lead consistently unless you have a vision and can translate it into interesting, uplifting words.
Rakesh has that vision and puts it into interesting language here (no surprise that he chose a poet to help make his point). That made the subject fresh so that we wanted to print his submission and some of you are moved to reply.
--Richard Korman/Opinion editor/ENR
One contributor below says, "...Yet this country chooses lawyers and wall street people to manage the country..." and then goes on to excoriate politicians and lobbyists. The system do...
The status of our profession will not change until they do.
Does this article consider builders (contractors) as part of the group that should come out and get the respect they deserve? There are many college educated, non-engineers, as well as...
ev
last post is whats keping us back. The article is about engineers, if you want, you can write another one about builders, why complain?
Re: Rudyard and Rakesh<br/>Both are politically incorrect and brilliant. I saw Rakesh make major changes at ADOT and he made his share of enemies with special interest and good old boys...
Both are politically incorrect and brilliant. I saw Rakesh make major changes at ADOT and he made his share of enemies with special interest and good old boys. He lost his job in political change but changed ADOT for better. If he had played the game and did the usual BS, he would have been in DC running some agency. Brilliant people don't run anything, they write articles, while BS artist are taking over the world.
Great piece, I have tried to encourage engineers and the profession on my blog, <a href="http://www.tallbridgeguy.com," rel='nofollow'>www.tallbridgeguy.com,</a> for years. Engineers ar...
http://www.tallbridgeguy.com/2011/02/05/bridge-engineering-manifesto/
http://www.tallbridgeguy.com/2011/03/08/engineers-as-leaders-ahhh-not-so-much/
Most interesting and thought provoking. The comparison to the American Medical Association is a good one. It's true in more ways than one--if you follow health-care reform, you'll see a...
And how said that the engineer with the highest profile lately is Harold Camping (the rapture guy).
As an American, I am squeamish about anything resembling technocracy. I think this is a good trend. As an engineer, I think that the truth of facts and the usefulness of technology shou...
engineers have themselves to blame for their situation. boldness and engineers dont go together
So much wailing and gnashing of teeth from otherwise staid and sensible engineers! Y'all should go over to the Architectural Record forums . . . boy, can those guys whine!! And for a re...
Great commentary on the sad state of affairs as to the stereotypical engineer's litany of so-called shortcomings. Fortunately your Viewpoint commentary not only informs, but flies in th...
Yes, there are many engineers that possess leadership abilities with a positive view of the world, and who strive for betterment of the community we live in.
In the USA our image is tarnished as you describe, whereas in Europe and Asia an engineer's contribution is respected and receives positive recognition. From personal experience I can tell you that this state of affairs was also a sore point for engineers in Australia in the 1970's and onward.
Keep up your intelligent voice.
Joe Grynbaum, P.E.
I'm surprised no one has commented on the issue of over-supply. There have been a number of comments discussing the success that attorneys and doctors have had in elevating the status ...
Engineering on the other hand seems bent on granting a degree to anyone who wants to suffer through the classes with a "C" average. This dilutes salaries and it dilutes the talent pool. And, as some have noted, it gives engineers the image of being a commodity.
I also believe that unionizing engineers will garner them about the same respect as that enjoyed by the human robots building cars in Detroit.
Dave Donohue, P.E.
While I agree wholeheartedly with the intent of the article, do we really need a religious sermon in the Viewpoint section? We need not look to the bible or Kipling for answers to our p...
The number one reason engineers are not leaders at this juncture of history is that they have no VISION and have nothing to contribute to the big picture of the planet. Stop whining and...
Just because you've "graduated" doesn't mean you are automatically elevated to the rank of exalted leader. The urban planner or landscape architect in your office has been trained to interact with, and understand the cultural needs of their clients. They have a more altruistic bend of mind and an interest in designing with the health of the planet in mind. The public is central to their service. And,engineers who bash CAD techs usually haven't mastered AutoCAD themselves.
Not so good to compare engineers with MDs. Doctor's voices are missing from health care change because U.S. docs are on the highest pedestal in the world. They stand to lose power, prestige, and earning ability. Naturally, most of them can only whine about how we will have only third-rate care, not admitting that statistically it's mostly third-rate already, and with so many citizens totally unable to afford or qualify for decent health care.
Yes, let's not drag Kipling and religion into this either. My opinion of Kipling? Third-rate poet relegated to children's anthologies. I could be wrong--haven't made a study of it--but my undergraduate degree is English Lit. He was English, Europe was still enthralled with the industrial revolution--and why not? it was heady stuff--the age of the engineer. Monsieur Eiffel and his iron tower. Abraham Darby III--now there was an engineer with VISION. What about the Pantheon in Rome, or 19th C. concrete. What about Jorn Utzon and the Sydney Opera House. Great design, but he couldn't figure out the engineering (too young) but Ove Arup and specifically Peter Rice (An Engineer Imagines) got it for him. I have a list of engineers who were interesting, popular, social thinkers and inventors--they're fascinating to read! Who are yours? Who are they today? They're out there--take them as your mentors.You have to earn respect. It doesn't come just by putting initials after your name, or having a union to proclaim your intellectual abilities.
And yes, you have to read and take classes to keep up with the world. If you're still living in the world of 30 years ago, you're a goner!
And last, but certainly not least: if you can't be bothered to use spellchecker, or compose a whole sentence, or a decent paragraph, why would anybody even consider putting you in charge of anything? I'm dismayed that even "professionals" have fallen prey to the dumbing down of grammar, syntax, and spelling!
The first three sentences are common jokes in almost any profession. How many rocket scientists does it take to screw in a light bulb? (There are a number of amusing answers.) How many ...
I'm sorry to add that the third paragraph of the article is absolutely valid. If engineers are being cut out because they have inadequate business skills, and zero political knowledge, then they should be relegated to the back desk as problem solvers.
Nothing wrong with being a problem solver....
self hate in engineers is too great to appreciate this article. to the previous commenter who called kippling third rate poet is third rate himself. look in the mirror.
I don't quite agree with the article. Several CEOs are in fact engineers. Of not only engineering or tech companies but also financial companies as well.
the article is honest. like it or not<br/>
The State Board of Engineers says: "Protect the Health and Welfare of the Public". Jesus says "Love<br/>your Neighbor as your self". Whats the Diff?<br/>David Niese,PE
your Neighbor as your self". Whats the Diff?
David Niese,PE